'Death' of DERV spreads.

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Colin Lambert
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'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by Colin Lambert » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:21 pm

Honda swell the number of manufacturers doing away with DERV.

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/new-cars/2019-10/honda-to-scrap-diesels-as-range-goes-electric-and-hybrid/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter%2028%20Oct%202019&utm_content=Newsletter%2028%20Oct%202019+Version+A+CID_13a08000f316de517bcab661c08dd960&utm_source=campaign%20monitor&utm_term=Read%20more
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Diploma in Automotive Engineering.
Retirement is wonderful, it's doing nothing without being caught out! :lol:
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Silverbear
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Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by Silverbear » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:48 pm

And customers who keep their cars a long time like me. Over the 10 years I hope to own my petrol I imagine diesels will cease production and taxes will ramp up for the remaining diesel cars. Frankly at around 40 MPG as measured at the pump my petrol is not bad I think and as good as my previous diesel 7 seat MPV. If like me you carry large but light loads and encounter few steep hills at speed the pretrol is fine. I thought I would miss the low gear torque of the diesel but the 7 speed DSG means ones ceases to care as the car takes care of it.
SE (5 seats) 1.5 4x4 DSG, factory tow bar, drive mode selection, reversing camera, rough road package, folding door mirrors, 215/65R17 spare wheel.


FoxtrotAlpha
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Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by FoxtrotAlpha » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:49 pm

Silverbear wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:48 pm
And customers who keep their cars a long time like me. Over the 10 years I hope to own my petrol I imagine diesels will cease production and taxes will ramp up for the remaining diesel cars. Frankly at around 40 MPG as measured at the pump my petrol is not bad I think and as good as my previous diesel 7 seat MPV. If like me you carry large but light loads and encounter few steep hills at speed the pretrol is fine. I thought I would miss the low gear torque of the diesel but the 7 speed DSG means ones ceases to care as the car takes care of it.
On average I am getting about 50mpg (highest in long journey is 63) out of the 2.0 TDI (150bhp) it's also hired so I dont pay the road fund and I wont keep it after the hire so for me it's not a problem.

By the time I change I am hoping that there are better options and I dont believe petrol will be far behind diesel in terms if being taxed out of existence.

The issue I see with electric and hybrid at this time is the range limitations and the ability to charge. I know several people who have hybrids as company cars due to the lower taxation and they all say that in the real world you get about 35miles of pure electric propulsion, after that the engine kicks in and you do less than 18 mpg after that if you are lucky. As a consequence they use damn sight more fuel than a diesel would.

Charging for many is an issue, unless you have easy access to charging points then you are gubbed, anyone who does not have their iwn driveways have a problem at the moment

Personally I hope the development into hydrogen fuel cells continues as I think this is a better solutions than electric.
It's a 'Kodiaq' and not a 'Bear' unless you are 5 years old.
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Colin Lambert
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Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by Colin Lambert » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:04 pm

As an ex Shell Retail Division man I have been enthusing about hydrogen for years. Only two manufacturers, to my knowledge, make hydrogen cars, Hyundai SUV (ridiculous price) and Honda (not available in U,K,)I cannot understand why the world is going bonkers about EVs. Range anxiety, charging ability, time taken to charge & the inability of the National Grid to cope, all preclude me from converting to EV.
Many manufacturers seem quite happy to have battery mileage of only 160-ish miles.
Only Tesla (stupid money), Hyundai and Kia seem to be proponents of 250+ miles ability.
On the very odd occasion I want/need to drive 200+miles, there is no way I am prepared to stop at an Mway service area to find that some charging points are u/s and all the working ones are occupied and I need 45 minutes to charge. By the time I have waited to complete the operation I may well have wasted 2+ hours. NOT ACCEPTABLE!
Admittedly most of my runs are much shorter and charging a 250+ mile EV a couple of times a week overnight would be no problem.
Another problem is that even the Kia does not have a big enough boot for our two hounds. (and excruciatingly BORING colours!)
The Mitsubishi PHEV I had was doing 22 miles to the charge on an 80 mile round trip with no charging capability at the turn round point resulted in 51mpg overall, which to be fair is not bad for a 2 ton 4WD brick, but nowhere near Mitsubishi's claim of well over 100mpg!
ModeratorEdition .1.5DSG. Petrol Blue. S/s spare, Cream leather KAROQ. :shock: EX Kodiaq SE L1.4 DSG.
Diploma in Automotive Engineering.
Retirement is wonderful, it's doing nothing without being caught out! :lol:
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scratch113
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Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by scratch113 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:10 pm

I still have several issues with the head-long rush to demonize diesel. Firstly it categorically produces less CO2 emissions per kilometer driven than petrol. Whilst there have been significant strides made in petrol technologies, there are also significant improvements on the diesel front also - even 15 years ago the prospects of averaging 60mpg in a car the size of my wife's Mercedes C220 would have been unthinkable, but hers is a 2015 car and the latest EU7 compliant engines will take this on another step.

Diesel is often seen as a 'dirty' fuel, however the latest diesels actually emit less particulates than they are taking in from the atmosphere, admittedly because our cities are so polluted. The bigger problem is how to remove the older, less efficient and more polluting diesel vehicles (especially lorries, buses and delivery vans) from our roads whilst not losing capacity to deliver the services that are currently covered by them.

Whilst it is entirely noble of Honda to stop producing diesel cars, I'm sure it is purely a commercial decision - diesel has been demonized by the press to such an extent that it is no longer viable for a manufacturer to spend millions developing new technologies for engines powered by diesel if the public just won't buy them.

Another thorny issue with the race to electrify everything is electricity capacity in the UK, not just the availability of charging points. At today's electricity generating capacity, we actually don't produce as much as we consume and have a net import of just under 5% of our consumption. Switching millions of motorists to electric cars over the next 10-15 years is going to have a significant impact on the demand for electricity to drive our cars which is currently fulfilled by a combination of petrol and diesel. And whilst renewable energy is also a noble venture, it isn't without its detractors - onshore has an impact on wildlife (mostly bird populations) and offshore uses huge amounts of both concrete and steel, both of which produce enormous quantities of CO2 to manufacture. We need to more than double the renewable generation in this country over the next 5-10 years just to cover the projected loss of older nuclear, coal and gas-fired power stations.

No easy answers to any of this and I haven't even touched on the range issue for electric cars, which seems to be sold on the promise of some mythical future technology that will solve this issue and allow us to travel in the same way as today where you can drive 400 miles, fill up in under 5 minutes and then carry on - not sure that's going to be the case in 20 years from now when we're all driving electric cars and both petrol and diesel are prohibitively expensive...

There's a good (but quite long!) article from Mercedes about their take on the future of diesel here, especially with regard to some European cities proposing the wholesale ban of diesel cars:
[url]https://www.daimler.com/innovation/diesel/diesel-debate.html [/url]
New car: Kodiaq Sportline 2.0TDI 190 4x4 DSG
Previous:
2016 LR Disco Sport HSE Lux
2008 Audi A5 3.0TDI
2003 Audi S4 4.2 V8
1998 Audi A4 2.8 quattro
1995 Audi A4 1.8T Sport
1992 VW Golf Mk3 1.9 TD
1990 Ford Escort Mk5 1.6 LX
1983 Vauxhall Astra Mk1 1.3 S


ChrisL
Posts: 255
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Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by ChrisL » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:17 pm

If I were buying a car today only diesels would be of interest.

Sod the Climate Goblin :P
Petrol Blue 2.0TDi 190ps DSG 7 seat Edition with black leather, front/rear parking sensors, heated front windscreen/washer jets, ventilated seats, adaptive cruise control, traffic sign recognition, driver personalisation and rear view camera.


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Old and Grumpy
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Location: Leicestershire

Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by Old and Grumpy » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:27 pm

scratch113 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:10 pm
I still have several issues with the head-long rush to demonize diesel. Firstly it categorically produces less CO2 emissions per kilometer driven than petrol. Whilst there have been significant strides made in petrol technologies, there are also significant improvements on the diesel front also - even 15 years ago the prospects of averaging 60mpg in a car the size of my wife's Mercedes C220 would have been unthinkable, but hers is a 2015 car and the latest EU7 compliant engines will take this on another step.

Diesel is often seen as a 'dirty' fuel, however the latest diesels actually emit less particulates than they are taking in from the atmosphere, admittedly because our cities are so polluted. The bigger problem is how to remove the older, less efficient and more polluting diesel vehicles (especially lorries, buses and delivery vans) from our roads whilst not losing capacity to deliver the services that are currently covered by them.

Whilst it is entirely noble of Honda to stop producing diesel cars, I'm sure it is purely a commercial decision - diesel has been demonized by the press to such an extent that it is no longer viable for a manufacturer to spend millions developing new technologies for engines powered by diesel if the public just won't buy them.

Another thorny issue with the race to electrify everything is electricity capacity in the UK, not just the availability of charging points. At today's electricity generating capacity, we actually don't produce as much as we consume and have a net import of just under 5% of our consumption. Switching millions of motorists to electric cars over the next 10-15 years is going to have a significant impact on the demand for electricity to drive our cars which is currently fulfilled by a combination of petrol and diesel. And whilst renewable energy is also a noble venture, it isn't without its detractors - onshore has an impact on wildlife (mostly bird populations) and offshore uses huge amounts of both concrete and steel, both of which produce enormous quantities of CO2 to manufacture. We need to more than double the renewable generation in this country over the next 5-10 years just to cover the projected loss of older nuclear, coal and gas-fired power stations.

No easy answers to any of this and I haven't even touched on the range issue for electric cars, which seems to be sold on the promise of some mythical future technology that will solve this issue and allow us to travel in the same way as today where you can drive 400 miles, fill up in under 5 minutes and then carry on - not sure that's going to be the case in 20 years from now when we're all driving electric cars and both petrol and diesel are prohibitively expensive...

There's a good (but quite long!) article from Mercedes about their take on the future of diesel here, especially with regard to some European cities proposing the wholesale ban of diesel cars:
[url]https://www.daimler.com/innovation/diesel/diesel-debate.html[/url]
Your link results in the following;

Multiple Choices
The document name you requested (/innovation/diesel/diesel-debate.html[/url) could not be found on this server. However, we found documents with names similar to the one you requested.
Available documents:

/innovation/diesel/diesel-debate.html/url (common basename)
Please consider informing the owner of the referring page about the broken link
2018 Kodiaq SE 1.4 TSI, 2WD, manual gearbox, 5 seater, Petrol Blue, absolutely standard, no extra toys, (92Kw more than enough for my needs), Leicestershire. :D


Silverbear
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu May 09, 2019 9:54 am
Location: UK

Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by Silverbear » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:33 pm

Colin Lambert wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:04 pm
As an ex Shell Retail Division man I have been enthusing about hydrogen for years. Only two manufacturers, to my knowledge, make hydrogen cars, Hyundai SUV (ridiculous price) and Honda (not available in U,K,)I cannot understand why the world is going bonkers about EVs. Range anxiety, charging ability, time taken to charge & the inability of the National Grid to cope, all preclude me from converting to EV.
Many manufacturers seem quite happy to have battery mileage of only 160-ish miles.
Only Tesla (stupid money), Hyundai and Kia seem to be proponents of 250+ miles ability.
On the very odd occasion I want/need to drive 200+miles, there is no way I am prepared to stop at an Mway service area to find that some charging points are u/s and all the working ones are occupied and I need 45 minutes to charge. By the time I have waited to complete the operation I may well have wasted 2+ hours. NOT ACCEPTABLE!
Admittedly most of my runs are much shorter and charging a 250+ mile EV a couple of times a week overnight would be no problem.
Another problem is that even the Kia does not have a big enough boot for our two hounds. (and excruciatingly BORING colours!)
The Mitsubishi PHEV I had was doing 22 miles to the charge on an 80 mile round trip with no charging capability at the turn round point resulted in 51mpg overall, which to be fair is not bad for a 2 ton 4WD brick, but nowhere near Mitsubishi's claim of well over 100mpg!
How is the hydrogen produced; it does not occur naturally.
SE (5 seats) 1.5 4x4 DSG, factory tow bar, drive mode selection, reversing camera, rough road package, folding door mirrors, 215/65R17 spare wheel.


Silverbear
Posts: 348
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Location: UK

Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by Silverbear » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:42 pm

Given that fossil fuels are limited moving to electicity is only a matter of time whatever the view of diesel. The only question is how will the electricity be produced. Long term the hope is that fusion will be possible I would guess but before then a variety of sources are increasingly being used. The range is getting much better and really once average cars reach 400 miles, which is what I get from my petrol Kodiaq with 100 miles range left so I don't run dry, the range issue is solved. Then it is simply refueling time and that might involve the compromise of a half hour refuelling break and we will have to adjust our expectations. The national grid might not be able to deliver the capacity to refuel at home but then we have never been able to do that have we?
SE (5 seats) 1.5 4x4 DSG, factory tow bar, drive mode selection, reversing camera, rough road package, folding door mirrors, 215/65R17 spare wheel.


scratch113
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:59 pm

Re: 'Death' of DERV spreads.

Post by scratch113 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:50 pm

Your link results in the following;

Multiple Choices
The document name you requested (/innovation/diesel/diesel-debate.html[/url) could not be found on this server. However, we found documents with names similar to the one you requested.
Available documents:

/innovation/diesel/diesel-debate.html/url (common basename)
Please consider informing the owner of the referring page about the broken link
Hmm, that's odd, just tried it again and it worked fine for me. Not sure what I did wrong if others can't link to it either. Links here don't seem to work either - the [url]...[/url] start and end should make it a proper link in blue that you can then click on, but it seems to be broken on this forum.
New car: Kodiaq Sportline 2.0TDI 190 4x4 DSG
Previous:
2016 LR Disco Sport HSE Lux
2008 Audi A5 3.0TDI
2003 Audi S4 4.2 V8
1998 Audi A4 2.8 quattro
1995 Audi A4 1.8T Sport
1992 VW Golf Mk3 1.9 TD
1990 Ford Escort Mk5 1.6 LX
1983 Vauxhall Astra Mk1 1.3 S


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