'Electric nonsense'.

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Colin Lambert
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'Electric nonsense'.

Post by Colin Lambert » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:43 am

Electrical nonsence

After spending my working life with Shell Retail, I have long believed that 'electricity' is NOT the answer to automotive propulsion. HYDROGEN is the answer.
If you have time this may interest you.

Here’s Why Electric Cars Are Useless TESLA

Range, on the flat, just over 200 miles
in summer. In winter lucky to get 100 miles.

And in winter - no heating!

To suggest, as some ignorant people have, that electric cars ‘emit no CO2’ is absurd because the power stations that charge them do. To charge an electric vehicle (such as a Tesla), just once, requires the burning of 43 kilogram of coal. A petrol car will require about 20 kilogram of petrol for the same distance. It follows that the electric car is emitting more than twice the CO2 of a petrol car.

Here are the sums:

Drax (see back page) uses about 0.31 kilogram of coal per KWh generated.1
A Tesla battery is rated at 70 KWh and fast charging is only 50% efficient. It will need 140 KWh of electricity for a single charge; this works out as

about 43 kilogram (0.31 × 140) of coal for a full charge.
The cost of electricity for the range available in a Tesla—200 miles in

summer; 100 miles in winter—works out at £22.50. The petrol for 200 miles costs very little more and most of that cost is tax (currently about 60%)—about £28. In winter, for 100 miles, the petrol costs just £15.

LMSR Royal Scot 6100 in 1927

Further issues

During trials between 1927-30 of British steam locomotives a typical result was that, for a 500 ton express train, coal was consumed at the rate of 20 kg per mile.2 Over 200 miles therefore 4000 kg was consumed. Scaling down to a 2 ton car: 4000÷250=16 kg coal. Even allow- ing for economies of scale, compare this to the 43 kg required by a Tesla.

• In the battery manufacture for a Tesla model S, around 17.5 ton of CO2 has been released. That would take a petrol/diesel car some eight years to produce!3
• Battery cycling—the deterioration of the capacity of a lithium battery with

charging—must be allowed for, costing about £3 per cycle.4
• Fire: even small lithium batteries are liable to catch fire or even explode, releasing deadly toxins such as COS, HF, CO.5 The huge dangers for occupants in event of an accident are obvious. Firehoses would only exacerbate the

1. www.euronuclear.org/info/encyclopedia/f ... arison.htm. Figures from Greenpeace are higher: 0.7 kg/KWh (www.energydesk.greenpeace.org/2013/02/1 ... p-burning/). Wind turbines take ~5 years to pay off their CO2 debt (concrete, metal mining, refining etc). They seldom last more than ten years.

2. The British Steam Locomotive 1925-1965 by O.S.Nock, Ian Allan 1966. p67 Dynamometer Car Tests 1927 on LMSR Engine Royal Scot No. 6100.

3. According to IVL, the Swedish Environment Institute.
4. Battery ‘swopping’ is unviable. An average garage refuels 1000 cars a day; how are they going to recharge

1000 batteries every day @ 5-12 hours each? Also who is going to carry them @>half a ton each? 5. Carbonyl sulphide (similar in action to cyanide gas), hydrogen fluroride, carbon monoxide.

problem, causing electrocution of victims.6
• The Tesla battery weighs 800kg—that’s nearly a ton—equivalent to 10 passengers. Battery/petrol equivalent weight ratio—summer 50:1; winter 100:1.

Further hazards

In winter, in severe conditions, electric cars become death traps. Firstly, the battery power halves every ten degree drop in temperature, so you are likely to get stuck in a snowstorm. Then there will be no heating in the car and a blizzard outside. You will freeze to death inside and, outside the car, you may die seeking help. This would not happen in a petrol car. A petrol car’s engine remains at full power down to the last drop of petrol and has plenty of heating. The electric car loses power almost immediately as the battery drains—and has no heating.

As most of the numpties, who think electric cars are viable, live in towns the above point doubtless passes them by, but the huge potential for traffic clogging due to ‘dead’ electric vehicles has not been considered7, nor has the issue of time to recharge. Currently an average petrol car takes about 5 minutes to fill up with petrol, pay and depart. If an electric car takes a minimum of 75 minutes to recharge, the queues are going to be astronomical and the time wasted also astronomical (see also note 4. on the previous page).

The BBC tried to take an electric car from London to Edinburgh. It took

6. This has already happened: www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/richar ... h-10599134 7. One type of electric car is called a Leaf. This will give a wholly new meaning to ‘leaves on the road/line’!

more than three days, slower than a stagecoach. Strangely, people sometimes need to get to places quickly.

In case anyone thinks that there is a miracle battery just over the horizon, I can absolutely assure him or her that there is not. Battery technology is mature, and, to quote Mr David Hume, “Miracles do not happen.” (at least in technology).

Just where is all this power to come from anyway?

The Climate Change Act requires that by 2045 all gas heating be replaced by electric heating and all cars be electric. Besides the stupidity of turning huge amounts of electricity back into heat, clearly no one in government has done the maths. The results are horrendous!

Drax power station in Yorkshire

4 gigaWatt = 4,000,000 kiloWatt

17 million gas using households (to replace gas boiler) @ 30kW 26 million standard8 chargers for electric cars @ 8kW

510,000,000kW 208,000,000kW 718,000,000kW

All needed at peak from 5pm when people come home, turn on heating, plug in car, take a shower and turn on the oven.
This will require: 718,000,000kW ÷ 4,000,000 (1 Drax) ® 180 ‘Drax’ power stations

Were these to be run on biomass (wood chips)—as 50% of Drax already is—this would consume, annually, the entire annual timber harvest of the USA! Plus—we will need to dig up every street to lay much bigger cables.

Electric HGVs anyone?

8. The 75 minute Tesla super charger requires industrial 400v 3-phase supply unavailable to domestic homes. 26 million such super chargers would require an additional 700 Drax power stations.

Philip Foster MA (Nat. Sci.) 1 Barnfield, Hemingford Abbots, Huntingdon PE28 9AX 01480 399098 philip.foster17@ntlworld.com
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AndyH
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by AndyH » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:30 pm

Does Mr Foster MA (Nat. Sci.) know you have his address and phone number Colin? I wonder if the poor fella has trouble sleeping !


romanv
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by romanv » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:36 pm

Colin, I totally agree with you. Hydrogen is the answer. And my country definitely can’t supply enough electricity if everybody would switch to EVs.


Rob M
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by Rob M » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:27 pm

I have to agree.
I have discussed this before elsewhere and people really do not grasp the more fundamental issues that will be faced by this Electric 'Revolution'
I am an Openreach Engineer and I have a grasp of how a network is created and structured. The Electricity Network is quite similar.
It is going to cost a monumental amount of money just to enhance, let alone create,an infrastructure to allow vehicles to be charged up, and Im not even talking about charging stations.
If you live on a road with on street parking you are going to need street chargers as you will not be able to run an extension cable across the footpath and in through a window........
Its another ill conceived ill thought out abomination that is going to financially cripple us and will reduce pollution by 0% because we wont have enough nuclear power stations to provide the energy and not enough wind turbines to produce enough power to fry an egg.
I'd still like a Tesla tho. :D
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Sprower
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by Sprower » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:33 pm

Hi Colin,

A lot of very good points, and I agree with a lot of the issues raised.

Personally I believe that we will see a huge shift towards “next-generation” hybrids and PHEVs over the next 5-10 years given the many challenges you’ve highlighted in terms of the move to full-electric, on-street charging, etc.

However, I would question some of the calculations you quote, particularly in terms of the number of kg of coal required to generate power etc. The cost of renewable energy (wind / solar in particular) is plummeting, and combined with improved energy-storage technology (both in-home to store energy such as a Tesla power-wall concept, as well as improved in-car storage) will start to transform performance.

This will be further boosted with the current research into flexible super-capacitor technology......e.g. plastic engine / boot linings and other vehicle linings being replaced with lightweight energy storage devices.

Like you, I see the many challenges of moving to an all-electric solution.......but still believe we will see a major shift over the next 3-5 years.

S.
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Savage
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by Savage » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:40 am

I agree electric cars are not the way forward, so why isn't more being done to research and promote hydrogen cars ?
The same ill informed government advisors that were convinced diesel was the answer in 2001probably.
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JKSKodi
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by JKSKodi » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:32 pm

Problem with Hydrogen is the energy required to generate it, usually consuming electricity to do this, so no real saving compared to plugging them in.
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Gloucskodi
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by Gloucskodi » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:59 pm

We are pretty good at dealing with explosive , pressurised liquids.
After dealing with LPG for ages, I'm sure hydrogen will be fine.
However the one advantage It does have over electric is refuelling time
Not sure I want a R101 on the motorway though
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Gizmo68
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by Gizmo68 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:53 pm

Haters will always be haters...

So many of his calculations are flawed... to the point that I ended up skipping most of the post:

Range, on the flat, just over 200 miles in summer... how about over 220 miles for the smallest battery in a Tesla to over 350 miles,
In winter lucky to get 100 miles... oh dear, yes the winter will have an effect, but certainly not half the range!
And in winter - no heating! ?? you can even pre-heat the car so it is warm when you get in, or just use the conventional heater that warms up quicker!

To suggest, as some ignorant people have, that electric cars ‘emit no CO2’ is absurd because the power stations that charge them do. To charge an electric vehicle (such as a Tesla), just once, requires the burning of 43 kilogram of coal. A petrol car will require about 20 kilogram of petrol for the same distance. It follows that the electric car is emitting more than twice the CO2 of a petrol car.
How many power stations rely on coal to produce electricity? there is more and more electricity produced by solar / wind

Here are the sums:

Drax (see back page) uses about 0.31 kilogram of coal per KWh generated.1
A Tesla battery is rated at 70 KWh and fast charging is only 50% efficient. It will need 140 KWh of electricity for a single charge; this works out as
Only 50% efficient? :lol:

The cost of electricity for the range available in a Tesla—200 miles in summer; 100 miles in winter—works out at £22.50.

Lets ignore the mileage figures for a moment as I have already proved them to be wrong, a 100kWh Tesla can do 350 miles, but lets say you need to put the whole 100 kw in (+ 10% losses) which will never happen, so 110 kWh x 14p (the std average rate of electricity... not including any economy7 etc you may be on which will slash the price) = £15.40 for a FULL charge
The petrol for 200 miles costs very little more and most of that cost is tax (currently about 60%)—about £28. so twice the cost!


Further issues

In winter, in severe conditions, electric cars become death traps. Firstly, the battery power halves every ten degree drop in temperature, so you are likely to get stuck in a snowstorm. Then there will be no heating in the car and a blizzard outside. You will freeze to death inside and, outside the car, you may die seeking help. This would not happen in a petrol car. A petrol car’s engine remains at full power down to the last drop of petrol and has plenty of heating. The electric car loses power almost immediately as the battery drains—and has no heating. :lol:

As most of the numpties, who think electric cars are viable, live in towns the above point doubtless passes them by, but the huge potential for traffic clogging due to ‘dead’ electric vehicles has not been considered7, nor has the issue of time to recharge. Currently an average petrol car takes about 5 minutes to fill up with petrol, pay and depart. If an electric car takes a minimum of 75 minutes to recharge, the queues are going to be astronomical and the time wasted also astronomical (see also note 4. on the previous page). most electric cars will charge at night whilst the owner is asleep, meaning you start every journey with ‘ a full tank’, granted if you do not have off street parking then they may not be for you yet.

The BBC tried to take an electric car from London to Edinburgh. It took more than three days, slower than a stagecoach. Strangely, people sometimes need to get to places quickly. just over 400 miles means 1 stop to supercharge, so not the end of the world if you need to stop for a coffee / toilet break, but yes it will take slightly longer

All needed at peak from 5pm when people come home, turn on heating, plug in car, take a shower and turn on the oven.
This will require: 718,000,000kW ÷ 4,000,000 (1 Drax) ® 180 ‘Drax’ power stations thats when smart charging comes into its own and doesn’t charge at peak times!

Electric HGVs anyone? yes already 'here'


Finally if electric was such a non starter then why have Shell opened (or have announced they are about to... I forget the details) an EV charging station?
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Rob M
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Re: 'Electric nonsense'.

Post by Rob M » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:31 pm

The arguments for and against Electric powered vehicles can bang on but there are some questions that appear to be either unanswered or not asked.
Firstly, as stated, not everybody ( make that milllions) of people will not have off street parking to charge their vehicles.
There is no infrastructure in place to overcome this fundamental issue and its going to cost billions to create, if its actually feasible.
Who is going to foot the bill?
Secondly, with the eventual running down of fuel supplies to a trickle, there is going to be a multiple billion pound hole in the Government coffers.
Currently, I believe, its running at something around £25 billion a year in fuel duty revenue.
How will it be replaced?
VED? Tens of billions could be wiped off with zero emission vehicles becoming the norm and the majority.
That's money that will have to be found elsewhere.
Im not against electric vehicles, Im just a bit bewildered at the notion that its just going to be rolled out without it being costed, without a planned infastructure, without any clarity on cost, who is going to be paying for it and how the black hole in the finances are going to be filled.
This idea that we will all be charging cars by plugging them in next to the kettle is ridiculous, the theory that its only going to cost £12.43p to do so is even more ludicrous.
We can barely produce enough energy as it is, it takes years to build a single nuclear power station and we are going to need several.
Electric vehicles are viable but viable for all is only going to happen in a Utopia and we don't live in one.
Im totally unconvinced that Electric cars are going to be the norm within the next 30 years, I see hybrids being pushed harder once the penny drops and its realised that it will take considerably longer to go fully electric, purely because of the practical issues and not because the technology to build cheap, reliable cars with a good range is not possible.
Practically, its town and city pollution that is the greatest issue, running a hybrid around said towns and cities on batteries is going to be the answer and a run on an engine outside of those zero emission zones would do a recharge.
Problem solved.
Maybe.
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